Originally Posted by Edge Igneas

I believe the "old gods" refers to the current 5, however the difference is that it was a time when the gods walked Tyria like mortals.

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Right, I guess I should be clearer: I know the names of the Old Gods, I'm just curious as to people's thoughts of their origin. Are they from the mists? Are they just powerful beings, maybe even once human? Did they really create Tyria, or is that just a story told by humans?

Not all races believe in the old gods. Dwarves have the Great Dwarf. Norn have their nature spirits. Charr don't have gods, Sylvari have the "Dream of Dreams", not sure what Asura believe (a more practical "science" like view of life?)

Originally Posted by Edge Igneas

Personally I think its a mess, and a pretty poorly done history.

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Yeah, it's a mess, and it's going to get a lot messier with GW2. There's going to be 5 races, either each getting their magic from the old gods whether they like it or not, or each with their own source of magic.

Originally Posted by The Ecology of the Charr

Then, the humans came, an infestation caused by beings called Gods that had been enemies to the Charr since the beginnings of history. The humans worshiped and revered these gods, and in return were given magic the likes of which the Charr had never before.

Originally Posted by The Ecology of the Charr

Before the time of the humans, it is said the Charr had no gods, no concept of divine beings with more power than themselves. They knew of Melandru, and even had legends that described how she created the world. But to the Charr, these beings were not to be worshiped or feared–they were to be fought, and if possible, destroyed.

Originally Posted by Mordakai

There seems to be some discrepancies between "Ecology of the Charr" and "The Guild Wars Manuscripts."

Originally Posted by Mordakai

In fact, "Movement of the World" even hints at this, including the quote: "Never trust the past. There is too much forgotten, too many things hidden beneath the sand of ages. Even your own memory can lie to you..." - Decimus, the Historian

Originally Posted by Mordakai

So the problem I have is, according to the Manuscripts, the Old Gods did everything: They sent the Forgotten here, they gave all the races (including Charr, even Imps and Minotaurs) magic, they either created Tyria or helped create it.

Originally Posted by Mordakai

But now, with "Ecology of the Charr", we learn that the Charr either came before the Forgotten, or sometime after, confining the Forgotten to the Crystal Desert. We also know the Charr reject the Old Gods.

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Considering the fact that there is a history in Guild Wars of "false gods" (the Unseen Ones, the Titans), who are the "Old Gods"? Did they really do everything listed in the Manuscripts, or were they just powerful beings, maybe even once humans, whose Avatars still effect life on Tyria?

Originally Posted by Mordakai

EDIT: GmrLeon has a great idea about the gods and the mists, but it really doesn't address my specific questions, like why the Charr rejected the Old Gods, and how the new races (Norn, Sylvari, Asura) view them.

Originally Posted by Edge Igneas

The True Gods, also known as the Old Gods, are the five (after Nightfall, six) gods that are the most commonly worshiped gods in Tyria. They are the beings who, in the religion of Humans and other advanced races, created the world of Tyria, gave magic to the races, and who bestow the Favor of the Gods.

Their other title, the Old Gods, is given because they have left the world of Tyria during the Exodus at year 0. In the timeline BE stands for Before Exodus and AE stands After Exodus.

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Right, I guess I should be clearer: I know the names of the Old Gods, I'm just curious as to people's thoughts of their origin. Are they from the mists? Are they just powerful beings, maybe even once human? Did they really create Tyria, or is that just a story told by humans?

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Dwarves have the Great Dwarf.

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Norn have their nature spirits.

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Sylvari have the "Dream of Dreams", not sure what Asura believe (a more practical "science" like view of life?)

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Sigh, I should do more research. Even though the Dwarves worship the Great Dwarf, they still at least reference the Old Gods, specifically Dwayna: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Attack_on_Jalis%27s_Camp

"Dwayna, why would you take my brother? We had come to terms, he and I. I had forgiven him. What am I to do now?"

(although this quote could be attributed to the fact that Uril worshipped Dwayna, and Jalis is paying respect to his brothers religion)

Originally Posted by Edge Igneas

The gods left for the Mists after Abaddon fell. There is no origin

Originally Posted by Edge Igneas

You cannot be sure, from my understanding each race has its own particular belief, and they do not connect.

Originally Posted by Edge Igneas

Perhaps the true gods did create Tyria, or maybe they did not. We cannot know because the whole game is played from the human point of view, and it makes the image that our gods are the superior and real ones. But the dwarves have their own image as well, and seems just as true as the human one.

Originally Posted by Edge Igneas

Personally I think its a mess, and a pretty poorly done history.

Originally Posted by nvmu

Perhaps it is a little messy, but so is ours in real life. Multiple religions each have there own god that created the world. And there have many many religions and gods throughout the life of our world.

Originally Posted by nvmu

On a side note... Grenth has UW, Balthazar has FoW, Abbadon has the realm of the torment, Melandru perhaps created earth, only thing left to figure out is what Dwayna/Lyssa created.

Originally Posted by The Ecology of the Charr

They knew of Melandru, and even had legends that described how she created the world.

Originally Posted by nvmu

OH and btw, the guild wars manual that came with proph when i got it, does have the "Old Gods" listed as Grenth Balthazar, Melandru, Dwayna and Lyssa

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Questionable. Many "non-sentient" beings use magic, yet the History of Tyria says only sentient beings were given magic. Just like how the Charr didn't have magic until they found the Titans.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I'd say it's not saying they came before or after - but leaving that part in the dark. But instead it is saying that the Charr, like the Mursaat, Seers, and Forgotten (and even Titans) are the oldest known races on Tyria.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

as the gods were said to be the first creatures out of the Mists

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

The only ones who did this in Guild Wars were the Mursaat. (Which is actually, a debatable thing!)

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

The Great Dwarf is their patron god. The Dwarves still worship the Old/True/Five/Six Gods, but add on another god. This is proven by Jalis' dialogue in Thunderhead Keep and the quest in Eye of the North where Orozar's brother dies. It is likely that the Great Dwarf was once part of the pantheon, but like Abaddon, Dhuum, and Abaddon's unknown predecessor (likely to be named Arachnia), was overthrown (I believe by Balthazar).

Originally Posted by Movement of the World

It is unknown how old a Sylvari can become, as they come forth fully mature and show no signs of aging thereafter. Sylvari have no children, no families as such, but each Sylvari feels a special connection with others through what they call the “Dream of Dreams.” In this dream, they commune with the inner mind of the race, learning how to speak, walk, use simple tools, and interact with the world. Thus, when a Sylvari emerges, she knows a great deal more about the world than one might expect.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

There is always an origin.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Dwarven connects to that

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

WRONG!

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

So does the Asuran (via that quest chain in EN).

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

WRONG!

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

The Centaurs have to believe in the true gods (and to my belief, worship Melandru and/or Balthazar) as a Centaur resides in the Fissure of Woe - another connection.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

WRONG!

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Most races believe in the True Gods - or there are hints of such - in some shape or form. Even if it is not worshiping them.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

WRONG!

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I theorize all realms of the gods reside in the Rift, which is the Guild Wars afterlife. So I doubt that Melandru alone created Tyria (though the Charr do say that Melandru at least had a hand in created the world).

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Though the term "Old Gods" is not used in Cantha and Elona because the gods were not as close to those continents as they were to Tyrians (especially Orr) so the other locations didn't feel as distant as the Tyrians did (simply due to the difference in change between the closeness of god to human).

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Originally Posted by The Ecology of the Charr

One by one, the legions of the Charr fell beneath the control of these “gods” and their Shamans, and the Charr at last earned new magic, a new means of destroying their human enemies south of the Wall.

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Not only that, but the History of Tyria does not state that only sentient beings were given magic, rather it says intelligent creatures. The difference being that, at least in the case of GW, we, or at least you and I, tend to separate the creatures based on sentience, i.e. having a language, structures, complex community, etc. Anything is capable of having some level of intelligence, but, sentience is much different than common-intelligence, in a sense, it is a higher level of intelligence, or more complex intelligence.

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Technically, in the case of the Titans, and I know you placed it in parentheses, they would be one of the oldest known creations by the Gods or a God.

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Actually..I don't think anything ever states that. I think it's just a general assumption, however, the Mists itself could be viewed as being a creature in a way, so it would have been one of the "first" creatures..

Originally Posted by Prophecies Manuscripts;Regions and Landscapes;The Underworld

It is said that all forms of life, no matter how simple or complex, can trace their origins back to this one place.

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Only your parentheses save you here, as I was going to retort that the Mursaat never force worship of them on anyone. Outlawing the worship of certain Gods does not mean forcing the worship of your Gods on them. This is easily seen by many of the Krytans that still worship the Old Gods in the face of the White Mantle.

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Nothing ever, ever, indicates that all of the Dwarves worship the human Gods alongside the Great Dwarf. They may acknowledge their existence, as the Charr obviously do, but not worship them. Ural is the exception, not the rule. And, likewise, nothing at all supports the Great Dwarf ever being overthrown by any other God, nor is there any support for the Great Dwarf being Balthazar in another guise.

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

I still don't see why people tend to connect the Dream of Dreams to religion..

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

As to the Eternal Alchemy, it seems more or less to be more of an atheist/agnostic thing than anything else. It seems to be the belief that everything in the universe works together in some manner or form, as gears in a machine work together to merely produce the movement of the arms on the clock's face.

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Not to some physicists.

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Not completely. They are only connected via the Asura's natural curiosity, they merely analyzed the human Gods, they do not worship them.

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

As I said about Ural, that Centaur is more likely to be the exception, rather than the rule.

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

There is a difference between acknowledging, and believing. I can acknowledge the Christian God, but that does not mean I believe in the Christian God's existence, just as I can acknowledge Allah, but that does not mean I believe in Allah's existence. Likewise for any other deities.

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Rift does not equal afterlife completely. It's the center of the Mists, with, under your theory, the Gods' realms residing around the Rift, not within it, last I checked.

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

The Underworld being the main afterlife, and the Realm of Torment being the afterlife for the worst of the worst. We haven't any complete confirmation that people are taken to another God's realm dependent on their worship of that God. Ural is the only, slight, evidence of this being a possible case.

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

A possibility, but not completely viable. Recall that Balthazar did visit Cantha himself, challenging Kaolai, whose spirit now resides in Tahnnakai Temple.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

This is what I was referring to. Technically, by our wording, we are both wrong. The sentence implies that the Charr had magic before the Titans, and states that the Titans gave Charr magic.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Technically, sentient=intelligent. What you call sentient is actually a civilized race - which has a majority of things that you mentioned (specifically, language, writing, agriculture, urbanization *settlements*). While what I mean is more of the last three things you said were - more complex intelligence (as technically, everything has intelligence).

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Mis-remembered here, though this is the closest sentence in the section I can think of, I thought there was a statement saying that the first beings to step out of the creation of the universe. I know I read that somewhere - wonder where... probably a long time ago from an inaccurate source.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Technically, the outlawing the worship of the old gods by the White Mantle does mean forcing the worship of Unseen Ones. It seems to me that the "oppression" was light (at least at first) and was getting heavier and heavier. It is seen in some quests that the White Mantle are doing more and more things themselves (like taking over the lionguards' job slowly, and pushing the worship of the old gods to just the Temple of Ages).

You, having hardly doing quests, wouldn't notice this I'm sure. The debatable part I was speaking of was whether it was the will of the Mursaat, or of the White Mantle.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

No, nothing supports the Great Dwarf being overthrown - which is why I said It is likely - perhaps I should have said "I believe" twice instead of just near Balthazar. And I didn't mean Ural is "the rule" - but two supports and no denies does imply that the Great Dwarf is more of a patron god than a monotheistic religion.

In fact, the fact that they acknowledge their existence is pure proof that the Great Dwarf is a patron god and not a monotheistic faith. Because if they didn't believe in them, you don't say things like "The left hand a Grenth comes for us!" And you most certainly don't have to worship other gods in order to have a patron god - you just need to acknowledge them.

Originally Posted by Mhenlo

The mountain folk have a belief in what they call the Great Dwarf. Imagine that. A single god. How foolish.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Thank you, you didn't harm what I said at all there, just had me go more in depth.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Because the faith of the Sylvari is never mentioned, but the Dream of Dreams is, so people instinctively fill in the gap of faith with this Dream of Dreams.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

And the gods would be a part of the "gears". Which is also very similar to Taoism, of what my memory recalls. And their "knowledge" side of their culture makes me think of Confucianism. Both Taoism and Confucianism are less of religions than more of beliefs of the universe which replace the necessity of a god.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

The only thing that could possible not have an origin - aside from the monotheistic god - would be time.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I should really stop using "believe" but instead "acknowledge" as when I do use believe, you get your panties in a twist.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Yes, yes, I know all that. However, relating GW's religion to reality's religion, is slightly different. As in GW, we know they exist - we've seen two, and we see their avatars. In reality, it's pure guess. To acknowledge a god in GW is to acknowledge their existence - whereas to acknowledge a god in reality is to acknowledge the faith. Two separate things.

While that doesn't mean acknowledging and believing is the same in GW - which it doesn't - it does mean that the religion knows the gods exist.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

No, my theory is that the Gods' realms reside inside the Rift, and around the Hall of Heroes.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Oh, I didn't mean that the gods never went to the other continents. It seems Lyssa and Abaddon went to Vabbi and elsewhere in Elona and Grenth (and Lyssa?) to Cantha. I meant that the Tyrians were closer to the gods than the other continents - not that the other continents had no contact with the gods.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

(likely to be named Arachnia

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Ah, tah tah tah! Wrong! The Great Dwarf is their patron god. The Dwarves still worship the Old/True/Five/Six Gods, but add on another god. This is proven by Jalis' dialogue in Thunderhead Keep and the quest in Eye of the North where Orozar's brother dies. It is likely that the Great Dwarf was once part of the pantheon, but like Abaddon, Dhuum, and Abaddon's unknown predecessor (likely to be named Arachnia), was overthrown (I believe by Balthazar).

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Actually, the sentence there, despite the article's claiming to have been copied verbatim, is off. It actually says "learned." That aside, it seems to imply to me merely the provision of the Cauldron of Cataclysm and the how-to-use instructions rather than anything else.

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Sentient is much easier than saying "civilized race" over and over though, I'm sure you'd agree. As to your last sentence, I would classify that as being common intelligence. Er..Actually, I'm not completely sure what you're attempting to say with that last sentence, but I think we're basically saying the same thing in different terms.

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Actually, believe it or not, I have done many of the Krytan quests, but nothing in them suggests to me that the White Mantle are going to kill you for worshiping the True Gods. Besides, if they really wanted to crush worship of the True Gods, they would have destroyed the shrine of Dwayna, and the Temple of the Ages. Not only that, but they're still not forcing the common Krytan to worship the Unseen Ones. It's been quite some time since I did the quests, but I can't recall a single one where you see them gathering up Krytans to take them to a White Mantle temple for indoctrination.

Originally Posted by Prophecies Manuscripts;Regions and Landscapes;Kryta

Travelers to Kryta will find a stark contrast between the fortified, polished-stone buildings of the White Mantle and the thatch-roofed huts of the regular citizens. There is a surprising amount of wealth here, but it is kept in the hands of those who adhere to the doctrines of the Mantle, and this is reflected in the architecture of the region.

Originally Posted by The Kingdoms of Tyria;The Kingdom of Kryta

There are two types of humans in Kryta: those who worship the mysterious Unseen Ones and those who do not. The worshippers have become known as the White Mantle because of the long white sleeveless robes many of them wear.

It is the responsibility of the White Mantle to oversee the other humans and impose upon them the rules and laws of the Unseen Ones. Those inside the organization receive special privileges (more food, better clothing, access to books) simply for abiding by the rules of the Unseen Ones and carrying out the orders handed down by the White Mantle high priest. To the Krytans the White Mantle are the root of law and order, the protectors or saviors, if you will, of their lands.

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

*cough* This suggests that it is a monotheistic faith.

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

I suppose, but you would think they'd be more likely to look to the Ventari Tablet for a religious affiliation, rather than the Dream of Dreams.

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Don't ask me. My only knowledge regarding Asian religions is very limited, mostly to Buddhism, and it's very little in that regard as well.

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Actually..Some physicists believe that there are multiple universes, perhaps just two, it's not really specified, but that over trillions of years come closer together, until they collide, and reform into new universes every so many trillion years. It never explains where the two came from, but rather suggests that they always existed, and that our universe's origin would only be the origin of one version of our universe, that has always existed, will always exist, but simply change every so many trillion, or beyond that, years.

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Hey, if I don't, people will start thinking that every race or creature believes in the Gods, which just isn't accurate. And you're more OCD than I am when it comes to accuracy, at least, on the wikis.

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Just because we, as humans, know they do, doesn't mean the other races know they do. It would be akin to saying the Mursaat, Seers, Wardens, or Dredge know they exist. We haven't anything to suggest they know of their actual existence beyond certain races' faith. So, in their case, it would be acknowledging a faith.

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Er..Nothing other than the Vabbians strange fixation to Lyssa really suggests she went there, nor does anything suggest Abaddon went to Vabbi. Likewise, nothing actually says Grenth was in Cantha, it doesn't even say that Grenth inspired the Ritualist profession in An Empire Divided.

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

.dat extracts cannot be considered canon until elaborated on by the developers in some way, shape, or form, and it seems possible that they did already in the form of Arachni's Haunt. Although certainly lessened since the concept, it's still a giant spider, which, if Arachnia had been a God (or Goddess), it would have been gigantic anyway.

Originally Posted by nvmu

Just a theory, but perhaps "The Great Dwarf" was the original dwarf, or perhaps at one point was a great king of the dwarfs, and perhaps they took a page from the Egyptians which worshiped their Pharaohs and were thought of/treated as god, even though they still worshiped the Egyptian gods

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Earned or Learned, to me it seems the same. The Charr gained new magic from the Titans.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

The last sentence was saying that I say sentience is a more complex intelligent - not exactly civilized.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

The Hot Springs Murders - White Mantle taking over the Lionguard's job.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Some religious oppression shown right here. Not by death like you are thinking, but still oppression by faith.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

More separation, again, based on whether or not they believe in the Unseen Ones.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I think there is more dialogue, but harder to find. I could look around for it if you are not convinced. Again, oppression by faith (either you follow the Unseen Ones, or you don't) - but not by death as you claim. But for all we know, if the Mursaat were not mostly wiped out, and the White Mantle leaders with them, it may have eventually led to that.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

While they may not worship the true gods, they acknowledge their existence - which, due to acknowledging the gods' existence, they also cause the Great Dwarf to be their patron god.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Now, I know you will say it is still a monotheistic religion, but looking at Mhenlo's quote, to me it is just a simplistic and ignorant wording of "How can they only worship one god?" - in other words, they only worship the Great Dwarf, but still believe in the other gods - or acknowledge their existence for you.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I think of the Ventari Tablet as being their "ten commandments" - just the rules set upon them from *to them* a possibly unknown source. Neither the Dream of Dreams nor the tablet, do I see a religious connection... yet.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

While it isn't "accurate" it is highly plausible. Never meant to state those things as fact - but as possibilities.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Hence why, my dear little bible belt living person, I said "likely" - as in, if Arachnia is canon, that would be the name.

Besides, I think that if anything of Arachnia (physically Arachnia) exists in game, it would be the giant (much larger than Arachni) in Nightfallen Jahai.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

once fought the Great Destroyer (which I believe was not the one we fought, to be honest)

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

once used the Anvil of Dragrimmar to craft powerful weapons and armor,

Originally Posted by Outrunner Remlok

After many years of searching, I have tracked down an artifact of great import to the Dwarven people...the Anvil of Dragrimmar. Some say the Great Dwarf himself stood at this anvil forging great and powerful weapons, much as he forged our people. Alas, time clouds the stories and the anvil's resting place was lost.

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Ah. To me, it would need to be at least moderately civilized. Nothing extremely complex, of course. E.g. Grawl's clothing.

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Depends on your opinion. I'd be willing to say the Krytan monarchy did the same thing in terms of hoarding the wealth. The only major difference being following their doctrines, which, I wouldn't say is forcing their religion on the Krytans, more like saying, here's a better deal. Regardless, I see your point in that area.

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Did you know we have our own version of the Vatican?! It's even holier than the real-deal! We live in a theocracy as well, bet you didn't know that!

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

See, this is the main point in which I disagree. As you've continually pointed out yourself, religion is different in Tyria as we know the human Gods exist, we've seen two, and we see their avatars. However, just because they acknowledge their existence, or their presence in the world, and we both more or less agree on this, does not mean they worship them. Yet, it is this central point, worship, that makes all the difference. Let's say for instance that I acknowledge the existence of Uranus, Mars, Venus, Neptune, Mercury, Saturnus, Jupiter, Vishnu, Brahma, Shiva, Shakti, Yahweh, God, Allah, the Horned God, the Triple Goddess, the Great Spirit, and the spirits of Nature, whatever, alright? Let's say I select, I dunno, the Great Spirit to worship. Does this make it my patron "God" of sorts? No, it makes it my "God", I don't worship any of the others, despite acknowledging their existence. A minor thing perhaps, but either way...

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

mon⋅o⋅the⋅ism
–noun
the doctrine or belief that there is only one God.

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

..And now I have the image of grass believing in the Gods in mind..And immediately after that, fish.

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Right, but people instantly jump from likely to is, was, or will be. Just look at how many people jump on Anet for certain things they've said, where, they probably just said likely. As to what I had said, I meant that if they decided to alter the concept so that it would fit into the game. As it stands now, that's merely a landmark which we took to be something of Arachnia based on .dat extracts.

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Right, he destroyed the original, then Primordus created another. Actually, though, that could be a minor possibility, but alas, the only thing to suggest that as even being a possibility is the Tome of the Rubicon's contents.

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

That's still unconfirmed.

Anet's writers even put up the safeguard of time clouding the stories, but never fear, that's not enough to stop us from assuming it to be fact!

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Yeesh, threadsplosion... I need to hurry up and publish something, even if it's done deity by deity...

Originally Posted by draxynnic

First, the word I think people are looking for is 'sapience', which is the term that usually applies to roughly human-level intelligence. Sentience simply means "aware of the environment" - a common garden-variety snail is sentient.

Originally Posted by draxynnic

On the Great Dwarf... the Great Dwarf is what I've been thinking of as a 'first-generation' deity. This simply means that we don't know, nor do we have any hint about what the Great Dwarf's origins are. (As opposed to the second-generation Balthazar, Menzies, and Lyssa, in which we have some hint due to the existence of familial relationships which also implies the existence of parents, and the third-generation gods who replaced other gods. Yes, this does mean Kormir and Abaddon are both third-gen despite one succeeding the other.)

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Anyway, what we do know is: According to the Dwarves, the Great Dwarf was at least involved in the creation of the world (which the Charr credit to Melandru) in general, and the dwarves specifically. The Great Dwarf also has the Great Destroyer as his enemy.

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Also, about the Great Dwarf, he didn't forge the world on Anvil Rock, rather, he forged the Dwarven race there. As far as I know, there's nothing that suggests the Dwarves believe he created the world, although it would seem likely considering that's usually the case with any monotheistic religion and their God.

Originally Posted by draxynnic

This tells us two things by extension. First, the Great Dwarf was a contemporary of the dragons. Since we don't have direct evidence that the other gods were around at the time the dragons were, this might mean that the Great Dwarf is older (at least when it comes to interaction with Tyria) than the Old Gods we know.

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Second, since the Great Dwarf's nemesis was the Great Destroyer - which was only Primordius's general, not a dragon itself, and it's the ancient dragons, not their minions, who rival the power of the gods - this implies that the Great Dwarf is lower in stature than the gods. Moving into the realm of speculation, this could make him a demigod, an avatar (possibly of Balthazar (or his predecessor, if he has one), Melandru, or a combined avatar of both), a servant of the gods, or, like the dragons, simply a mortal creature of considerable power.

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Regarding his current existence - we know that he can still wield power, although he does so through an artifact (which means it could have been a stored spell that survived after his death). We also know that when the Great Destroyer arises, the Great Dwarf does not appear to personally intercede in the battle apart from this - although this, in turn, could be due to the divine noninterference policy that has been in effect since Abaddon's fall. While Jalis declares that the stone dwarves are 'all the Great Dwarf now', a hive-mind of stone dwarves does not seem to be the same entity as that that, in legend, forged the world atop Anvil Rock. It could be that that legend is false, it could be that the stone dwarves are connected to the mind of the Great Dwarf proper within the Mists, or it could be that, as speculated above, the ritual was simply one last fragment of the Great Dwarf's power after he had otherwise been destroyed.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Which means you place Dwayna, Dhuum, Abaddon's predecessor, and Melandru are first. THough I disagree - I'd add another generation for Kormir (and possible Grenth?), but this is off topic! Somewhat.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Different people have different opinions.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

It seems to me to be one step short of forcing. To me, instead of being "here's a better deal" it is being more like "Either follow our ways and be wealthy, or don't and be a poor peasant." Basically, bribing to expand their religion - which is sometimes an early step in forcing acts (gaining more power that is, and in this case, power is that of numbers).

Originally Posted by Draxynnic

In general, the Mantle seem to know better than to overtly suppress the worship of the Five. The method they do use, which has precedent in real-world history, is right there in the manual - the significant and unsubtle difference in wealth and living conditions between those Krytans in the Mantle (and thus worshiping the Unseen) and those that aren't. The inducement to convert is evidently economic rather than by force.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Nor did I care.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I think, the issue here, is a mixture of meaning for the term "patron god" - it seems to me that you view it as the god worshiped more than other gods being worshiped. To me, it means the god which is worshiped while acknowledging/knowing of other gods which could be worshiped without being "blasphemy."

The difference in term, is most likely due to difference in location (as is the issue with many usages of words).

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Only thing I need to point out there. But I'll explain to save you time of making me explain. Monotheism is the acknowledgment of one god. The Dwarves acknowledge the true gods. Most races do (those previously mentioned to have a connection) Thus, even if they worship one entity, they will never be monotheist because they acknowledge the existence of multiple deities.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

You repeat yourself all the time, and I understand. I merely, unlike you, keep the option open. Never pressing on it, never stating as fact, just a possibility. Dangerous for others - not for me.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Which we know so little of.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Still, the likeliest thing we have on the connection between the Anvil and the Great Dwarf - and I believe you yourself once said on a different topic, which was also unconfirmed, to take it as confirmed because it was said in-game, even if it may be in fact wrong. Over on GWO I believe, on a matter with the Mists. Unless my memory serves me incorrectly - and the case was in the same circumstances.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Yes, you do.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Which means you place Dwayna, Dhuum, Abaddon's predecessor, and Melandru are first. Though I disagree - I'd add another generation for Kormir (and possible Grenth?), but this is off topic! Somewhat.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I think he did get involved with the creation of the world - if he is indeed a first generation god like Melandru is, by Draxynnic's theory. If the "first" generation did contained Melandru, Dhuum, Dwayna, the Great Dwarf, Balthy's predecessor (if it wasn't Mr. Great Dwarf like I believe), Abaddon's predecessor, and Lyssa's predecessor, and if Melandru helped create the world, then I would say they all did. Melandru most likely working mainly on plantlife and the ground. Maybe Mr. Dwarf dealt with mountains and/or underground (caves).

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Nothing to argue here - though I say the last option is most likely to me. I do feel that the Great Dwarf is no more, but once was one of the "old gods."